Milwaukee Area & Chicagoland Brewers Group

The Chiwaukee Tavern :: RE: Revolution Brewing

Author: jayb151
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:06 am (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 9

I'm going to be stopping over here tomorrow (Wed). I'll let you guys know what I think. From the website, the food menu looks better than the brew, but we'll see

Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: peejaybee
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:57 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

Chesnok Red wrote:

Or a very bitter beer that is very sweet in the finish.

Which, btw, is one of my favorite things -- a very bitter beer that finishes a bit (although maybe no very) sweet.
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Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: Chesnok Red
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:37 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

Also another thing I want to point out.

Its very easy to miss the big picture here. Not see the forest thru the trees so to speak.

IMHO these salt additions (unless for ph control) only only serve to fool the human palate into percieving something as more prominant than it otherwise would be. I.E. high sulfate levels make the hops stand out more. The reality is that the IBU's, hop aroma, and hop flavor have not been altered in any way. Nor does a high chloride level modify the dissolved malts in any way.

High mineral levels taste salty and have a kinda drying mouthfeel after swallowing. Think of alka seltzer. or mineral water here. With this in mind I can easily see how a minerally or sulfate water can be percieved to enhance the hops. Only because as part of the finish in the beer swallow/aftertaste we get that drying sensation along with a hop flavor blast and a lingering bitterness.

A good Dortmunder Pils. is a good example of this drying minerally effect. And some German pils have a moderate sulfate content . I read that the farther north one goes into Germany the hoppier the beers get. I think it probably has to do with the water getting harder and the hop perception getting modified more than I would believe they use more hops. Who doesn't like a nice dry crisp German lager with its pronounced hop bite?

Bo pils on the other hand is even hoppier on paper than the German examples. But comes across the palate as a much maltier beer with a very well balanced hoppiness and seems to have a richness to it. I believe that with any other than very soft water this would not be possible with the large hop additions used in the classic Bo pils beers. A well brewed Bohemian Pilsner with its malt/hop balance in perfect harmony is a thing of beauty and to be savored in the glass.

Having observed many people in my beer club and friends etc. Its a common misconception that maltiness=sweetness and that hoppiness=dry bitter. They are both seperate, one can have a very malty beer that is not sweet at all. Or a very bitter beer that is very sweet in the finish.

As proof of this I gave many people a sample of a honey wheat that I brewed using 3lbs of honey. It finished dry, but the perception from people on the 1st few sips was cloying sweetness. We are conditioned from early memories that honey is always sweet. Thus when we taste /smell honey we automatically taste sweet. Indeed I find one has to really concentrate on the finish of the beer to decide is it really sweet or is it really dry, and is my palate is fooling me into believing something that is not really so.

The same can be said for fruits=sweet. Maybe that is why it is so difficult to brew a good fruit beer. If its sweet enough to blend with the fruit it gets to be cloying and if its dry something doesn't seem right about it, comes across as thin, and watery. The Belgians have it right with the bone dry finish with a tart acid bite. I can see how some wines with their acidity/sweetness factors being more favorable to fruits than the joe blow average fruit beer. Most spice beers are I feel the same thing. Very difficult to achieve that proper balance. I still have a hard time drinking pumpkin beers bacause I cant get past that cinamon,clove,nutmeg,ginger flavor being in a beer and not being sweet piece of pie with whipped cream on top.

Just a month or so ago one of my fellow clubmates poured me a cream ale in which he had added a small amount of vanilla, it had a mild vanilla aroma/taste to it. I knew better, but I could not get past the fact that my palate kept telling me this beer was thick, rich and had a very creamy mouthfeel. I have had this same beer in the past without the vanilla and it was a standard cream ale.

So our palates can be easily tricked and manupilated.

I believe these salt additions only act as a piece of the puzzle,that is beer. By the mineral manipulation one can help set the tilt of the beer to the right or the left, but its the ingredients that play the major role. Like when adding salt when cooking. If done properly it enhances the overall flavor of the dish but can easily be overdone.

Just my 2 cents and the ramblings of a beer nut with too much time on his hands.

Jim
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Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: Chesnok Red
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:23 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

I read all thru this water topic on both of the other boards Ken has linked back on page 1. Good information there and also here.

Other than adjusting salts for mash p.h. reasons (which can also be lowered by using acids such as Lactic) Palmers RA spreadsheet has boxes for acid additions also. All other adjustments should be in the boil kettle and only to affect the perception of the beer in question.

As far as the chloride/sulfate ratio's so often quoted I doubt that at low numbers it matters at all thus a 2:1 ratio means nothing if both are below 10 ppm but matters a lot if both or 1 is at or above 100ppm. Unfortunatly I have not seen a chart or definative information on when exactly is the chloride ion supposed to enhance maltiness? Is 10 ppm enough or do I need 100ppm? Or is it, what I suspect, and am lead to believe that in the absence of sulfate the chloride takes the dominate role and brings forth the malts thus low levels are ok for this? This would explain how Pilsner Urquell is so very malty with almost no minerals in the water.

If this is correct then sulfate would be the controlling factor in the ratio and it takes 100 ppm or more before it really brings out the hops unless chloride rides along also at higher levels and washes out the sulfates. Which means the finished beer stays balanced? So many questions

I read Ken has already been busy running (water alteration) experiments on his beers that he knows well. I look forward to hearing about his results.

Jim
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Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.
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Beer :: RE: Thermometer

Author: Dave McG
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:35 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 12

I've got the VWR that Rhoobarb linked to. I like it alot and it's calibration is certified. They have a version with a 10 inch probe instead of the long wire. I'm happy with the wire, but I wish it was shorter.

Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: McBrew
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:06 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

peejaybee wrote:

In the spirit of "you think YOU have it bad..."

My water's so hard that I need a FOID to carry water balloons.

McHenry county water is awesome!

It's actually not unexpected if you know something about the geology of the area. Just look at the huge amount of gravel pits in the area.
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Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: Ken Lenard
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:48 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

Seriously, that is wild. I had no idea that water samples fluctuated by such extreme amounts. Someone on another board told me that my alkalinity of 113 was unbelievable! Yours is 3 times that amount. I mentioned this someplace else, but you would think that with the wild variances in water, homebrewers would have to exchange water information when they exchanged recipes. Your numbers are making me feel pretty damn good about my water. I assume you've gotten past all of this and know how to work with it... which is a true testament to the homebrewing spirit. Cheers.
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Mayfair Court Beer is a good, honest beer at a tasty price. It has drinkability because it's triple-hops brewed. It's cerveza mas fina and it's the coldest beer in the world. It's a better glass of beer so stay thirsty, my friends. More at Mayfair Court Brewhouse

Beer :: RE: The Great Hop Buy

Author: Rhoobarb
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:27 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 11

JKap wrote:

... I'm ready to buy 'em by the pound! ...

Then here is your place to go crazy! Just got some hops from them and will be getting more soon.
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Rhoobarb

Beer :: RE: The Great Hop Buy

Author: JKap
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:27 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 11

Jim_R wrote:

Mike P wrote:

Jkap,

I use a food saver vacuum sealer to store bulk hops in 1 and 2 oz. packages. I store them in the freezer and have not had any issues. Although I'm glad the neighbors have never stopped by when I have a pound of hops and a scale on the table .

Cheers,
Mike P

+1 on the food saver. Although I will go up to 1# packs, and have stored them up to 2 years with no problems. I'll also keep around 5 ozs or so in ziplocks or twist lock bags for more immediate use, so the bulk packages don't get disturbed much unless I'm breaking them down.

Thanks guys. I'm ready to buy 'em by the pound!

Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: peejaybee
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:21 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

Ken Lenard wrote:

If you filled a pool with that water, I wonder if it would hurt when you jumped in. Holy cow. Do you dilute the water for every batch you make?

Everything except stouts. Usually I do 2/3 RO 1/3 well water, and I get pretty close to the right pH without other treatment.

I think I may start adding gypsum and preboiling my water to precipitate chalk, and try that for a bit.
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Beer :: RE: The Great Hop Buy

Author: sully nm_156
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:08 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 11

I store hops in two ways. The bulk hops I store in vacuum sealed bags in the freezer. These would be the bulk hops I get by the pound, I just repackage them into 1-2oz bags with a food vaccum sealer. The other hops I have around are the excess hops from orders. So a receipe may only have 1/2 oz of Perle in it, so the other half gets put in a zip bag for misc hops and put in the freezer. I assume I will use them up, but honestly I havn't tracked what is in the misc bag

The Dortmunder I brought out for the tasting was made with the bulk tett hops that were vacuum sealed. The baltic was perle and magnum. I have no idea how old those two were, and they were not vacuum sealed. Just put in a zip bag and tossed into the freezer The difference in storage could very well explain the taste differences. I think personally from now on, I need to either reseal any misc hops that I pick up, or just toss them. Otherwise they sit in the misc hop bag and it might be months before they get used.

Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: Ken Lenard
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:59 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

peejaybee wrote:

In the spirit of "you think YOU have it bad..."

My water's so hard that I need a FOID to carry water balloons.

pH 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 672
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.12
Cations / Anions, me/L 12.1 / 11.9

ppm
Sodium, Na 23
Potassium, K 16
Calcium, Ca 118
Magnesium, Mg 57
Total Hardness, CaCO3 533
Nitrate, NO3-N 2.8 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 39
Chloride, Cl 76
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 434
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 356
Floride, F 0.23
Total Iron, Fe 0.04

If you filled a pool with that water, I wonder if it would hurt when you jumped in. Holy cow. Do you dilute the water for every batch you make?
_________________
Mayfair Court Beer is a good, honest beer at a tasty price. It has drinkability because it's triple-hops brewed. It's cerveza mas fina and it's the coldest beer in the world. It's a better glass of beer so stay thirsty, my friends. More at Mayfair Court Brewhouse

Beer :: RE: Water Chemistry, salt additions, chloride-to-sulfate ratio..

Author: peejaybee
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:31 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 34

In the spirit of "you think YOU have it bad..."

My water's so hard that I need a FOID to carry water balloons.

pH 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 672
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.12
Cations / Anions, me/L 12.1 / 11.9

ppm
Sodium, Na 23
Potassium, K 16
Calcium, Ca 118
Magnesium, Mg 57
Total Hardness, CaCO3 533
Nitrate, NO3-N 2.8 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 39
Chloride, Cl 76
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 434
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 356
Floride, F 0.23
Total Iron, Fe 0.04
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Beer :: RE: Thermometer

Author: peejaybee
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:00 pm (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 12

Chesnok Red wrote:

Maybe I have just been lucky. my el cheapo walmart digital always matches my el cheapo dial thermometer. I have a large dial thermometer that is consistantly off by 2 deg. from the other 2.

I think the problem was that mine got totally immersed, and I don't think the probe is completely sealed. I've noticed it going bananas before, but it would always dry back out and read correctly, or so I thought.
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Commercial Corner :: RE: BOTM - March

Author: MAZ
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:12 am (GMT -4)
Topic Replies: 7

Well, I picked up my bottle yesterday and am looking forward to the tasting.

Re: the bad service experiences, that definitely sux and I also tend not to go back when it happens to me. I had a pretty good experience at their brewpub a few years ago, so maybe it's just a different wait staff at the pub now. Did you give feedback to the owners? While not a great excuse, maybe the Floyds pay more attention to the beer making than serving and are unaware of the problems.